A conversation with
on saving, sharing, Gen Z’s obsession with her, and flowers.
cw We know you have multiple bios, but would love to know where you're at now. Can you reintroduce yourself for anyone who may not know you?
mindy Yes! I am an associate professor at UCLA in the Department of Design | Media Arts. My practice focuses primarily on technology-driven performance and publication, and that's come in the form of two primary projects, Cyber-Feminism Index, and I'm working on a new one that will tour starting September, called "A Sexual History of the Internet..." that you were a part of in the video!
a Yeah, it was really cool to see that. I was like, oh my God, my face is there.
mindy Haha, yeah!
cw As previous students of yours, we're really grateful that you're offering your time to us! Being in your class was wonderful—hearing about your ideologies and your approach to working in design. We gave you some homework to seek out your own instance of Cloudwatching. Would you like to share it?
mindy You know, I actually didn't do the homework. I'm so sorry! Well, I have a skylight in this office, and Berlin's been extremely gray this summer, so I was actually thinking about your project when we do get these moments of blue sky and white clouds—which have been quite rare here.
a Wonderful.
c Do you take photos of the sky?
mindy I usually don't, but I'm going to take one during this interview, and I can send it to you after. Real-time sky.
a That would be awesome!
c I'm curious about what a Mindy Seu camera roll looks like.
mindy You know, I wish it was crazier, but it's pretty... [shrugs].
mindy Yes! I am an associate professor at UCLA in the Department of Design | Media Arts. My practice focuses primarily on technology-driven performance and publication, and that's come in the form of two primary projects, Cyber-Feminism Index, and I'm working on a new one that will tour starting September, called "A Sexual History of the Internet..." that you were a part of in the video!
a Yeah, it was really cool to see that. I was like, oh my God, my face is there.
mindy Haha, yeah!
cw As previous students of yours, we're really grateful that you're offering your time to us! Being in your class was wonderful—hearing about your ideologies and your approach to working in design. We gave you some homework to seek out your own instance of Cloudwatching. Would you like to share it?
mindy You know, I actually didn't do the homework. I'm so sorry! Well, I have a skylight in this office, and Berlin's been extremely gray this summer, so I was actually thinking about your project when we do get these moments of blue sky and white clouds—which have been quite rare here.
a Wonderful.
c Do you take photos of the sky?
mindy I usually don't, but I'm going to take one during this interview, and I can send it to you after. Real-time sky.
a That would be awesome!
c I'm curious about what a Mindy Seu camera roll looks like.
mindy You know, I wish it was crazier, but it's pretty... [shrugs].
cw In stalking your CV, archival and research work remains pretty consistent. You mentioned in a previous interview that “gathering is a tender and thoughtful collection of goods, a moment for reunion, a moment for celebration, and for introspection around those goods.” With apps like Pinterest and saving features on TikTok and Instagram, I'm wondering how you see young people our age digitally archiving and sharing those resources with others.
mindy I mean, what's different is pace. Every social network now has some sort of save and share option, but it's really encouraging the rapid saving and sharing rather than a more intentional filtering. When I save things on Instagram, I try to make sure everything goes into a designated folder, so if I need to refer to it later, there's kind of a trail built in. This small example is just a gesture of how we might be able to encourage a thoughtful filtering.
“We don't necessarily need a lot, but what we do collect should incorporate some
sort of citational trail, intentional metadata.”
We don't necessarily need a lot, but what we do collect should incorporate some sort of citational trail, intentional metadata. Of course, there are some pros to the rapid speed of which we currently do it, but generally, it seems like it's led to a lot of misattribution and extraction. I think slowing down a bit as we save and share could be a good impulse.
c What does misattribution mean here?
mindy I mean, what's different is pace. Every social network now has some sort of save and share option, but it's really encouraging the rapid saving and sharing rather than a more intentional filtering. When I save things on Instagram, I try to make sure everything goes into a designated folder, so if I need to refer to it later, there's kind of a trail built in. This small example is just a gesture of how we might be able to encourage a thoughtful filtering.
We don't necessarily need a lot, but what we do collect should incorporate some sort of citational trail, intentional metadata. Of course, there are some pros to the rapid speed of which we currently do it, but generally, it seems like it's led to a lot of misattribution and extraction. I think slowing down a bit as we save and share could be a good impulse.
c What does misattribution mean here?
mindy Sometimes you see a digital artifact or residue of something that's been shared. A screenshot with something on top of it, it's this natural remixing culture. But, if you don't do something like this—if there's no digital artifact—they're basically continuing a meme-ification of a viral move. If you're unable to track that back to the original person who created it, or if that's then adapted by someone else who is more reputable, so then they get a lot of the attribution and/or social and fiscal clout that comes from that... This is an example of misattribution. Like, there's so many images on Pinterest and Tumblr or are.na that are just "randomnumerals.jpeg," So we haven't really been encouraged to give proper citation to the original makers of these assets.
a Has it gotten harder to fall down the rabbit hole of finding that original source? And how do you even go about that?
mindy Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to find. Assuming the thing is born digital—this isn't even foregoing all the stuff that's taken from undigitized things and then brought into the online space—but assuming the asset is born digital, there's a lot of social citation that happens naturally on social networks. There's algorithmic methods like reverse Google image search. I'm sure there's a lot of other examples like this, but as you might guess, they're all very imperfect. And it's like trying to do something retroactively, rather than doing it from when you first do the action.
a You talk about the sharing of the goods. How does that show up in a digital sense, for you?
mindy I'm actually curious if you both feel this. There's been a turn away from these larger social networks, so there's been this rise of what people call a lot of different things: "dark forest," "the domestic cozy," or there's all these terms for small internets. So this is a bit exclusive, much more communal, and it's not meant for public broadcast. This is definitely a pendulum swing back from this big boom that we've seen over the past five years.
a Has it gotten harder to fall down the rabbit hole of finding that original source? And how do you even go about that?
mindy Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to find. Assuming the thing is born digital—this isn't even foregoing all the stuff that's taken from undigitized things and then brought into the online space—but assuming the asset is born digital, there's a lot of social citation that happens naturally on social networks. There's algorithmic methods like reverse Google image search. I'm sure there's a lot of other examples like this, but as you might guess, they're all very imperfect. And it's like trying to do something retroactively, rather than doing it from when you first do the action.
“It's like trying to do something retroactively, rather than doing it from when you first do the action,”
a You talk about the sharing of the goods. How does that show up in a digital sense, for you?
mindy I'm actually curious if you both feel this. There's been a turn away from these larger social networks, so there's been this rise of what people call a lot of different things: "dark forest," "the domestic cozy," or there's all these terms for small internets. So this is a bit exclusive, much more communal, and it's not meant for public broadcast. This is definitely a pendulum swing back from this big boom that we've seen over the past five years.
c It feels like a shift away from this sort of algorithmic world, where the scales are always weighted in one way or another. There's this embrace of spontaneity and a lack of structure there that lets you explore and curate yourself, and do that very human act of gathering with your own two hands— rather than having all these bridges and referents and proxies that take you that way.
mindy It also allows for how complex and varying all of our interests are. I might like something super mainstream, but I can also like something extremely niche, and that complexity isn't encouraged through these algorithmic searching mechanisms or sharing mechanisms. It just creates this echo chamber effect that, obviously, many studies have shown that it's been very disruptive.
cw In a bouquet, there's a similar balance of organization and organicity that feels akin to this act of archiving and curating. You've described helping out at your parents' Orange County flower shop growing up. What is your relationship with flowers?
mindy You've really done your research, wow!
c I was like, maybe that's too much...
mindy My relationship with flowers is quite deep. As you've noted, I grew up in a flower shop. Essentially, I was working with my mom all of the time. I really like weird, kind of robust flowers. I've never been very drawn to the delicate, wilting flower. I like flowers that are a mix, like a Protea.. It's like a mix of a plant and a flower. Rather than, like, a hydrangea, which is very fluffy and floral.
c Is there something in your experience with flowers that you can trace to how you go about your archival work today?
mindy It also allows for how complex and varying all of our interests are. I might like something super mainstream, but I can also like something extremely niche, and that complexity isn't encouraged through these algorithmic searching mechanisms or sharing mechanisms. It just creates this echo chamber effect that, obviously, many studies have shown that it's been very disruptive.
cw In a bouquet, there's a similar balance of organization and organicity that feels akin to this act of archiving and curating. You've described helping out at your parents' Orange County flower shop growing up. What is your relationship with flowers?
mindy You've really done your research, wow!
c I was like, maybe that's too much...
mindy My relationship with flowers is quite deep. As you've noted, I grew up in a flower shop. Essentially, I was working with my mom all of the time. I really like weird, kind of robust flowers. I've never been very drawn to the delicate, wilting flower. I like flowers that are a mix, like a Protea.. It's like a mix of a plant and a flower. Rather than, like, a hydrangea, which is very fluffy and floral.
c Is there something in your experience with flowers that you can trace to how you go about your archival work today?
mindy I don't know if it's specifically related to my archival work. Generally, there's a lot of naturalistic metaphors we see in technology: bug, cloud, rhizome. All of these things. So I think maybe those metaphors are an apt relationship to technology. This prompt to prune and weed your online space is probably also connected to this past.
Well, yeah, I don't know. I don't think about flowers so much. I do buy them on a weekly basis, though, so clearly they are important to me, yeah.
a Yeah. Cloudwatching literally came from a moment of sitting in a park and looking up at the sky. How do you think we bring that curiosity from the natural world into technology? Especially for younger people.
mindy I'm actually curious to see how younger people kind of grapple with the environmental impacts of technology. Tega Brain and Sam Levine are media artists who really grapple with this. There was a project a while ago called low-tech website, which was a solar-powered site. Things like this are definitely analogue, bespoke approaches to technologies, but I think it really starts to show the physical footprint that these things have.
c How do you feel about that? Have you heard of people who like home lab and have their own servers in their houses? It feels almost Doomsday preppy.
mindy For many people—no matter how radical your project—you're probably using AWS (Amazon Web Servers). For people who are really trying to think about the stack, like, every single level, then trying to figure out a more sustainable server method is an important conceptual act. But also for some people, you're kind of forced to do this because your governments are highly surveilling your online footprint. So Systerserver, for example, or the Red Umbrella Network—these were independent servers that were maintained by various activists for the sex work community, because if they were on the mainstream internet, they were just highly policed. I think it just depends on who needs isolation from primary governments and who doesn't.
cw Speaking of the mainstream and things like that... we recently saw you blow up on Twitter. The tweet reads: "Genuinely obsessed with her vibe."
"... there's a lot of naturalistic metaphors we see in technology: bug, cloud, rhizome... I think maybe those metaphors are an apt relationship to technology."
Well, yeah, I don't know. I don't think about flowers so much. I do buy them on a weekly basis, though, so clearly they are important to me, yeah.
a Yeah. Cloudwatching literally came from a moment of sitting in a park and looking up at the sky. How do you think we bring that curiosity from the natural world into technology? Especially for younger people.
mindy I'm actually curious to see how younger people kind of grapple with the environmental impacts of technology. Tega Brain and Sam Levine are media artists who really grapple with this. There was a project a while ago called low-tech website, which was a solar-powered site. Things like this are definitely analogue, bespoke approaches to technologies, but I think it really starts to show the physical footprint that these things have.
c How do you feel about that? Have you heard of people who like home lab and have their own servers in their houses? It feels almost Doomsday preppy.
mindy For many people—no matter how radical your project—you're probably using AWS (Amazon Web Servers). For people who are really trying to think about the stack, like, every single level, then trying to figure out a more sustainable server method is an important conceptual act. But also for some people, you're kind of forced to do this because your governments are highly surveilling your online footprint. So Systerserver, for example, or the Red Umbrella Network—these were independent servers that were maintained by various activists for the sex work community, because if they were on the mainstream internet, they were just highly policed. I think it just depends on who needs isolation from primary governments and who doesn't.
cw Speaking of the mainstream and things like that... we recently saw you blow up on Twitter. The tweet reads: "Genuinely obsessed with her vibe."
mindy Okay, so I deleted my Twitter years ago, and then all of my friends were sending me this. And I’m like, I don't know who this person is or what—I mean, it's very flattering, but I don't know! I don't have Twitter, so I didn't—I didn’t see the thing. There's a paywall. I think what I was fascinated by is what this person displayed was my CV spreadsheet! It wasn't even like a work, so I felt seen there as, like, a very active spreadsheet woman [laughs].
a What’s your take is on Gen Z's sort of internet obsession with you? We already have an idea for it, in our friend circle and people that we talk to. Do you see this happening a lot or not?
mindy Interesting! Okay, the Gen Z obsession thing. I don't even know if I can comment on that, because I don't know—Is that true?
a I think because we're in a young designer sphere, we hear and see it a lot. Especially being in your typography class... There's definitely a buzz.
c There's this mystique attributed to even being in your class. The first time I heard of you, I was listening to my graphic design directors, talking, like, "Yeah, Mindy is so cool, her class is awesome." It definitely does feel like there's this hazy glow around this concept of Mindy Seu.
mindy Oh, cool! So bizarre! I'm not really that online... no, that's a lie. I'm online a lot, but I'm not super active on Instagram or social media. I feel like, when I'm online, I'm observing and experimenting with different softwares or discords. Instagram is weird, because it's a public account. I feel like I'm very conscious of what I have to post, because I know my young students see it. So this is weird.
Whereas when I'm physically on campus, I always dress in a nothing outfit, because I just don't want to be perceived. Also, understanding, well, people see me in the world, too. When I was an undergrad, I wasn't very aware of what my professors were as people. I only saw them as a person in the classroom. Maybe that's also shifted, too, because DMA has excellent faculty and many of them have a very strong online presence.
c I'm thinking some of that appeal might come from this growing pressure to be a multi-disciplinary creative, or a hyphen, or a slashie. There are a lot of terms for it. Why do you think that is, and where do you think it comes from in this cultural moment?
mindy Hm. Like this desire to be interdisciplinary primarily?
c I feel this pressure where I should be able to be proficient at a bunch of different things. It almost feels like you're limiting yourself if you get super specialized in one way.
mindy I don't necessarily know if this is true. There are a lot of practitioners who are specialists within a very specific domain, and there are people who are generalists, who touch on a lot of different things. I'm definitely on the second camp, but everyone I work with is probably in the first camp. For many of my projects, for most of my collaborations, I work with Laura Coombs, who is the head designer at the New Museum. She is a specialist—she's an excellent typographer, she's an excellent bookmaker. And I think that these skills will always be extremely important.
c I'm thinking some of that appeal might come from this growing pressure to be a multi-disciplinary creative, or a hyphen, or a slashie. There are a lot of terms for it. Why do you think that is, and where do you think it comes from in this cultural moment?
mindy Hm. Like this desire to be interdisciplinary primarily?
c I feel this pressure where I should be able to be proficient at a bunch of different things. It almost feels like you're limiting yourself if you get super specialized in one way.
mindy I don't necessarily know if this is true. There are a lot of practitioners who are specialists within a very specific domain, and there are people who are generalists, who touch on a lot of different things. I'm definitely on the second camp, but everyone I work with is probably in the first camp. For many of my projects, for most of my collaborations, I work with Laura Coombs, who is the head designer at the New Museum. She is a specialist—she's an excellent typographer, she's an excellent bookmaker. And I think that these skills will always be extremely important.
The reason why I'm a generalist, probably, is because I suffer from a bit more boredom. I have a lot of different interests, and for whatever reason, I've been able to connect them... Maybe the impulse towards a hybrid practice is because everyone has a lot of exposure to different things, but also because we've kind of learned that there's so much cross-genre collaboration. Every artist that you see is also doing something in other areas, so it also shows the complexity of what people's interests are. Again, you have the specialized painters, but you also have artists that work in multiple media. So yeah, not right or wrong. But definitely two different branches.
c Yeah, maybe I'm picking up on something that's more specific to, like, our exact cohort, especially in DMA. There are all these different types of classes in different directions you can go.
mindy Compared to other schools that I've taught at, DMA really encourages an interdisciplinary approach. I went to DMA years ago as an undergrad, and even then, they were encouraging students to re-mix genres; I picked software and books, which I'm still working on now. I do think that's quite unique and special about the department. You could be a filmmaker who is also a programmer, and this kind of blend creates a lot of really unusual artists coming out of the DMA program.
cw In thinking about the many roles that you take on, and thinking about your CV... Who gets your informal bio, and then who gets the long, formal one?
"Maybe the impulse towards a hybrid practice is because everyone has a lot of exposure to different things, but also because we've kind of learned that there's so much cross-genre collaboration."
c Yeah, maybe I'm picking up on something that's more specific to, like, our exact cohort, especially in DMA. There are all these different types of classes in different directions you can go.
mindy Compared to other schools that I've taught at, DMA really encourages an interdisciplinary approach. I went to DMA years ago as an undergrad, and even then, they were encouraging students to re-mix genres; I picked software and books, which I'm still working on now. I do think that's quite unique and special about the department. You could be a filmmaker who is also a programmer, and this kind of blend creates a lot of really unusual artists coming out of the DMA program.
cw In thinking about the many roles that you take on, and thinking about your CV... Who gets your informal bio, and then who gets the long, formal one?
mindy You know, I always give them all of it, and 99.9% of the time they pick the formal bio. Which is fine and understandable, but it's kind of boring! Partly it's because there's a professionalism and formality to cultural institutions—very understandable. But, part of it is also reference grabbing. If you have a formal bio, you're typically listing institutions, education, clients. Those are all recognizable signposts. Whereas the informal bio, I mean—It doesn't make sense to a lot of other people, but it's fine.
cw Time for our lightning round!
mindy I'm so curious! Ten questions...
1. What is something people often get wrong about you?
mindy They think that I'm very serious.
2. What browser do you use?
mindy I use Firefox.
3. What's your In-N-Out Order?
mindy [laughs] This is such an LA question. I always get a hamburger protein style with grilled onions and chopped chilies.
4. What's your favorite piece of clothing in your current rotation?
mindy Maybe I'm looking at it! It's maybe too Y2K, and I would never wear this to school. It's a very long Roberto Cavalli denim skirt. It's casual and formal enough at the same time.
5. Least favorite place you've traveled?
mindy I feel like I had a very bad flight slash taxi situation when I was in Tunisia. But generally, I've been pretty blessed with pretty easy travel, considering I travel a lot.
6. Coffee or tea?
mindy Coffee.
7. What book is closest to you right now?
mindy I have a book of plays by Annie Baker called "The Vermont Plays." It's four plays in one. Annie Baker is amazing, if you ever get the chance to see one of her works.
8. What's your favorite song right now?
mindy Okay, my weird thing is, I don't listen to music. I know everyone thinks it's odd. Um, I've been listening to my friend's album all out. Kelly Lee Owens, Dream State. I don't know if I can name a specific song, ‘cause I just let it run on Apple Music.
9. Describe how you're feeling right now in one word.
mindy I'm a little tired, but not in a bad way, just in, like, a general lethargic way.
10. Now we're gonna flip it to you. You can ask us a question now.
mindy Wow. Um, why are you in Berkeley?
a We both kind of live in this area.
c Yeah, we're from the East Bay. We’re gonna drive back down to LA, but we both happened to be in the area, and we were like, let's meet you in this way to get as close as we can to an in-person interview.
mindy I lived in the Bay for four years or so, but it was very, very special. And one of my closest friends also lives in Berkeley. The produce in that city is unreal! City of micro-climates. A lot of history comes from the Bay, especially technologically.
cw Is there anything else you want to say before we head off?
mindy For young people in school, I think what you two are doing is the right impulse. Do well in classes, but also do as much self-initiated works with collaborators and friends as possible, 'cause that's the stuff that you're going to remember when you graduate. So, excited to see this!
cw Thank you so much, Mindy. Bye!
cw Time for our lightning round!
mindy I'm so curious! Ten questions...
mindy They think that I'm very serious.
2. What browser do you use?
mindy I use Firefox.
3. What's your In-N-Out Order?
mindy [laughs] This is such an LA question. I always get a hamburger protein style with grilled onions and chopped chilies.
4. What's your favorite piece of clothing in your current rotation?
mindy Maybe I'm looking at it! It's maybe too Y2K, and I would never wear this to school. It's a very long Roberto Cavalli denim skirt. It's casual and formal enough at the same time.
5. Least favorite place you've traveled?
mindy I feel like I had a very bad flight slash taxi situation when I was in Tunisia. But generally, I've been pretty blessed with pretty easy travel, considering I travel a lot.
6. Coffee or tea?
mindy Coffee.
7. What book is closest to you right now?
mindy I have a book of plays by Annie Baker called "The Vermont Plays." It's four plays in one. Annie Baker is amazing, if you ever get the chance to see one of her works.
8. What's your favorite song right now?
mindy Okay, my weird thing is, I don't listen to music. I know everyone thinks it's odd. Um, I've been listening to my friend's album all out. Kelly Lee Owens, Dream State. I don't know if I can name a specific song, ‘cause I just let it run on Apple Music.
9. Describe how you're feeling right now in one word.
mindy I'm a little tired, but not in a bad way, just in, like, a general lethargic way.
10. Now we're gonna flip it to you. You can ask us a question now.
mindy Wow. Um, why are you in Berkeley?
a We both kind of live in this area.
c Yeah, we're from the East Bay. We’re gonna drive back down to LA, but we both happened to be in the area, and we were like, let's meet you in this way to get as close as we can to an in-person interview.
mindy I lived in the Bay for four years or so, but it was very, very special. And one of my closest friends also lives in Berkeley. The produce in that city is unreal! City of micro-climates. A lot of history comes from the Bay, especially technologically.
cw Is there anything else you want to say before we head off?
mindy For young people in school, I think what you two are doing is the right impulse. Do well in classes, but also do as much self-initiated works with collaborators and friends as possible, 'cause that's the stuff that you're going to remember when you graduate. So, excited to see this!
cw Thank you so much, Mindy. Bye!
This transcript was edited for brevity and clarity.